A fetus is not a life. Particularly, without the host mother. No killing is involved. However, if you believe it is? It is not me, but you who are practicing hypocrisy. I believe killing is always wrong, you seem to have exceptions.


Dubba drops 2000 pound weapons of mass destruction.

Condoms, fail, birth control fails, the choice is not made during intercourse.

You support war, you are supporting the murder of others. THOU SHALL NOT KILL.

The fault is not on Gates for making the money, he is not being discriminated against, he is being discriminated for. The blame is on the provider of the tax cut. He is the one discriminating.

And, you did miss the point. You are doing what most conservatives do in order to preserve your established belief system, assimilating, rather than accomodating.

 

Odysseus...since you brought in Christianity I would like to point out that the Catholic church identifies a fetus as an unborn child. I am Catholic and follow that ideal...an abortion is killing that child in my eyes and the eyes of my Church. You can label it what you want but the fact of the matter remains Conservative Republicans and the Catholic Church both agree on this one.

Dubya's troops drop 2000 pound conventional explosives...not WMD. The only WMD that the US has ever used in combat were the two nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. There is a difference between the two.

I support this war because in my eyes it is just to get rid of the weapons Iraq has before they are used against us. What would you say if one of Iraq's WMD was let off in Times Square...would we then be justified to go after Iraq? Wouldn't there be a large section of the US population that would want to know why something was not done before to prevent it? This is why 75% of the US population supports the war.

Again I still have not missed your point...I have shot holes in it all along and your responses are typical for a liberal.

 

wow... the same flavor as Slow-N-Low.....


Gates would be discriminated for if, and only if, the top 10% paid less of a percentage in taxes than the other 90%. however that is not the case, nor has it ever been the case. on average that top 10% pays about double in taxes what the bottom 90% pays. in what world is this fair in the slightest bit? if there were a flat income tax rate across the board the only ones arguing that the rich got a big taxbreak are the ones that can't even pass a basic high school math class. if anything the rich are discriminated against by the tax system when in a perfect world it would be equal across the board.

edit: but this is just your average straw man argument

 

"I am Catholic and follow that ideal...an abortion is killing that child in my eyes and the eyes of my Church."

Doing the republican twist again. I know this dance well.

Again more hypocrisy.

You say you follow the pope and the Catholic church? The pope and the Catholic church are against the war and are against capital punishment. These are conservative causes. They are opposed to Christian Catholic causes. You only seem to follow the Catholic church in regard to abortion. Hypocrisy

Again, if you believe that a fetis is a child, and are against abortion because it is taking a life, when you turn around to support war and capital punishment, you are practicing hypocrisy, not Christianity.

You and your guns are not shooting holes. You seem to only be shooting yourself in the foot. Typical of conservatives to take the offensive when they are loosing an argument. Try shooting some holes in your own hypricy, which by the way you confirm every time you respond.

So far all I hear is that conservatives are good christians because they oppose abortion.

/^Blackmagik^\ You are only accounting for income tax. The fact of the matter is: the less money a person makes, the greater percentage of their income goes to the government via all taxes levied.

 

and it seems that now you are cofusing state government with federal government. the federal government has no sway over sales tax, property tax, etc... that is imposed by the state. if you don't like your state taxes don't reelect your governor or your delegate in your house of delegates.

sales tax is generally a flat rate across the board so it is fair to everyone. i don't know about property taxes, etc... but federal income taxes are not equal across the board hence they are not fair.

but this is yet again another straw man argument

 

No, I mean in overall money going to government, any agency, or level. However, my argument only holds true when compairing extreme income levels. There are certain things that everyone needs. These things are all taxed. These taxes on essential necessities comprise a great percent of a low income, but are a fraction of 1% of an extreme income.

Your response does raise another argument. Although I don't know exactly why, most state governments are doing very bad due to federal govt policy. This is hurting alot of people. Education is being cut, taxes are being raised, state employee wages are being frozen... It's become tough times for the states.

 

What Republican twist? What I said was 100% correct...I am sorry if you do not like it, but that is your shortfall...not mine.

Yes you are correct...the Pope and the Catholic Church are against the war in Iraq. But can the Pope, and/or the Catholic Church guarantee me that my wife, brother, sister, and sister-in-law are completely safe working and living in NYC? And a few hundred years ago we had the Crusades...which were sanctioned by the Pope to reclaim the Holy Land.

I support war when it is justified, which this one most certainly is. Would we be justified to go to war after Iraq's weapons were used? Wouldn't you be asking what could have been done to prevent it? Or would you be happy knowing that thousands of innocent American lives were dead because our President did nothing? Answer these questions for me.

And I am certainly not loosing this argument and my feet are just fine thank you. Try to stop listening to your liberal propaganda, come join reality, and you will see who is being the hypocrite.

 

Actually, our liberal Governor has done quite well, all by himself (well, ok, he's had help from our liberal congress and senate), to decimate California's economy.

One thing I would also like to note, but it should probably go into another thread, is that it is not a bad thing that education dollars get cut. Throwing money at a problem, without addressing what is REALLY going wrong, is fiscally unwise. Washington D.C's public schools are perfect example. That school system spends more dollars per student than (I believe) any other school district in the country, and student test scores rank among the lowest...

Uh, yep, I was right. Different thread. Won't rant anymore.

David Liske

 

"What Republican twist? "

You only choose to see things that support your established belief system. All other information is ignored or assimulated to fit your ridged cognitive schema.

"Yes you are correct...the Pope and the Catholic Church are against the war in Iraq. But can the Pope, and/or the Catholic Church guarantee me that my wife, brother, sister, and sister-in-law are completely safe working and living in NYC?"

No. that is the job of your government. And, they are making it more dangerous for you and your family. They are creating hundreds of thousands more extremests who for generations to come will endanger us all.

Again, you stated that you follow the church and it's ideals. However, when it doesn't support your needs, you abandon the ideals that you clame to follow. This is a lack of integrity. You only follow ideals that are self serving.

"The Crusades...which were sanctioned by the Pope to reclaim the Holy Land."

The crusades were mass murder in the name of god. Knights riding out accross the land forcing people to convert to Christianity. Those who did not, were killed. (ACCEPT JESUS AS YOUR LORD OR DIE BY MY SWORD). In general, the church has supported many false ideas. When Gallilao discoverd, against the churches position, that the earth was not the center of the universe, he was marked a herritic. The history of the Catholic church does indeed involve cruelity. The inquisition, Protestants and Catholics killing each other for years in Ireland, Child molesters being protected by the church. Not even the Church or the Pope is perfect. It has acted in self serving manners. However, The rules of Church are devised by man and therefore are falable. The rules of god are not. Even the Church practices hypocricy at times by violating the values taught by Christ.

"I support war when it is justified, which this one most certainly is. Would we be justified to go to war after Iraq's weapons were used? Wouldn't you be asking what could have been done to prevent it? Or would you be happy knowing that thousands of innocent American lives were dead because our President did nothing? Answer these questions for me."

Killing people is always wrong, Period. It is in violation of gods law and is never justified or rationalized. I do not believe that war was the only option here. I actually believe that it is making it more dangerous to be an American. Dropping airplanes or bombs to kill people is no different. Unless we kill everyone in the world who would like to do us harm, and every day now this number seems to be growing, we will not be safe. Isreal has been unable to stop terrorism. Everytime they are attacked, they launch an offensive to counter terrorism. These counter-terrorism offensives only seem to breed more terrorists. Diplomacy, inspections, expanding intelligance efforts... this is what needs to be done anyway, even with the war, and is the best defense against future attacks, which are now more likely than ever. Also, it seems to me that you are suggesting that it is justified to kill 100,000 Iraqies now in order to POTENTIALLY save 100,000 Americans in the future. One human life is no more important than another.



"And I am certainly not loosing this argument and my feet are just fine thank you. Try to stop listening to your liberal propaganda, come join reality, and you will see who is being the hypocrite."

As opposed to your conservative propaganda? You have contradicted yourself many times, selectively applying and abandoning values as they serve your interests. You say you follow the church? yes regarding abortion, no regarding war. You say you follow Christ's teachings regarding the sanctity of life? Yes, when it involves your in group, No regarding your out group. Your in group should not only include Americans, but all humans. The psychological constructs which allow you to do this are typical of conservatives. Even when your contradictions are pointed out, you refuse to correct your thinking errors.

Moral reasoning development is something that I studied extensively as a graduate student. The position you take does not say as much about your ability to reason moral delemmas as your justification for your position. Thus far, you have used particular reasoning as justification for certain positions, then have abandoned your reasoning when justifying other views. As a result, your value system remains intact, but filled with double standards and hypocricy.

I will post for you part of my published artical "The psychology of Conservatism vs Liberalism.

 

Webster's dictionary defines the following:

Conservative - To preserve. The political view that advocates for the preservation of established beliefs, practices, and institutions

Liberal - To give openhandedly. Open minded. The political view that advocates for greater individual economic freedom, greater individual participation in government, and the advancement of civil rights.

Additionally, there are only two methods for a person to deal with a new piece of information.

1. The person can assimilate the information. This involves changing the information to fit one's existing belief system.

2. The person can accommodate the information. This involves changing ones belief system in light of the new information.

Putting it together

Conservative and liberal thinking can not be separated from conservative and liberal politics.

By definition, conservatives tend to attempt to preserve their belief systems. They do this by assimilating information. The information is distorted and not perceived accurately. Allowing their belief systems to remain ridged and unchanged. As a result, personal growth reaches an impasse. They often tend to see the world in black and white terms. "You are either with us or against us". "You are either for war, or you're an ally of Saddam Hussein". They are not usually free thinkers, but the sheep of our society. However, this approach can be beneficial to the person in the short term. Cognitive dissonance and change are stressful. Conservatism allows a person to avoid the painful and time consuming process of reviewing and revising their cognitive structures.

On the other hand, liberals, by definition, are open minded. They actively refine their cognitive schema to accommodate new information. This leads to personal growth and development. An ever changing view of an ever changing world. They see the world, not in black and white terms, but in it's many shades of gray. They can "support the troops yet protest against war". They can be against abortion, yet protect a woman's right to choose. As opposed to the rigidity of conservatism that often breeds self-righteousness, liberals can change their mind and admit they were wrong. However this is often exploited by conservatives as "flip-flopping".

Without Liberal thinkers and politics, there would be no progress. We would all still be Europeans, thinking that the world was flat. We would still believe that the earth is the center of the universe, and that there is nothing wrong with owning another human being as a slave. With conservative thinkers and politics, we are restricted to the failed policies and views of the past. A time warp back to the 1980's. Not even the names have changed.