For those of you against the war....
09-27-2003 | 06:10 PM
#321
Thread Starter
my bum is on the swedish!
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: San Antonio, Texas
lmao.
you actually beleive that?
I think I found your article you used. Looks almost the same.....
the domino theory was total bullshit. I think it had about as much truth behind it as a "war on terrorism" would be successful against detering terrorists from attacking.
btw, I don't recall most of the east falling to communism. Does anyone else?
reading up to this point makes you wonder about the actions of our presidents.... See, they come up with the end idea before they think about the steps to be taken. "I want a war! How do we start one?" :ghey:
I find it funny you left the first part of that statement out. Here's the second, identical to yours:
now, what else happens?
ok, reread that. Thats not just talking about the one attack. It says 'many reports,' IE, more than one.
read on
ok, so we send destroyers over there to infiltrate and kill and sabatoge. We find the answers to our problems (war), and imediately jump on the first chance we get. 64,000 men later, we go home with our tails between our legs.
so do you honestly think with all that scandolous crap going on that the madox ACTUALLY was attacked?
have you seen the NV navy? A couple fishing boats....
you actually beleive that?
I think I found your article you used. Looks almost the same.....
After the assassination of John F. Kennedy, his deputy, Lyndon B. Johnson became the new president of the United States. Johnson was a strong supporter of the Domino Theory and believed that the prevention of an National Liberation Front victory in South Vietnam was vital to the defence of the United States: "If we quit Vietnam, tomorrow we'll be fighting in Hawaii and next week we'll have to fight in San Francisco."
btw, I don't recall most of the east falling to communism. Does anyone else?
Johnson, like Kennedy before him, came under pressure from his military advisers to take more 'forceful' action against North Vietnam and the NLF. The Joint Chiefs of Staff advised Johnson to send United States combat troops to South Vietnam. The overthrow of President Ngo Dinh Diem had not resulted in preventing the growth of the NLF. The new leader of South Vietnam, General Khanh, was doubtful that his own army was strong enough to prevent a communist victory.
Johnson told his Joint Chiefs of Staff that he would do all that was necessary to prevent the NLF winning in South Vietnam but was unwilling to take unpopular measures like sending troops to tight in a foreign war, until after the 1964 Presidential Elections. Just let me get elected," he told his military advisers, "and then you can have your war."
As the election was not due for another eleven months, the Joint Chiefs of Staff feared that this was too long to wait. They therefore suggested another strategy that would be less unpopular with the American public as it would result in fewer of the men being killed.
For sometime, military intelligence officers working in Vietnam had believed that without the support of the Hanoi government, the NLF would not survive. They therefore advocated the bombing of Hanoi in an attempt to persuade North Vietnam to cut off supplies to the NLF.
Curtis LeMay, the commander of the US air force, argued that by using the latest technology, North Vietnam could be blasted "back to the Stone Age." Others pointed out that "terror" raids on civilian populations during the Second World War had not proved successful and claimed that a better strategy would be to bomb selected targets such as military bases and fuel depots.
Lyndon B. Johnson preferred the latter proposal but was aware he would have difficulty convincing the American public and the rest of the world that such action was justified. He therefore gave permission for a plan to be put into operation that he surmised would eventually enable him to carry out the bombing raids on North Vietnam.
Johnson told his Joint Chiefs of Staff that he would do all that was necessary to prevent the NLF winning in South Vietnam but was unwilling to take unpopular measures like sending troops to tight in a foreign war, until after the 1964 Presidential Elections. Just let me get elected," he told his military advisers, "and then you can have your war."
As the election was not due for another eleven months, the Joint Chiefs of Staff feared that this was too long to wait. They therefore suggested another strategy that would be less unpopular with the American public as it would result in fewer of the men being killed.
For sometime, military intelligence officers working in Vietnam had believed that without the support of the Hanoi government, the NLF would not survive. They therefore advocated the bombing of Hanoi in an attempt to persuade North Vietnam to cut off supplies to the NLF.
Curtis LeMay, the commander of the US air force, argued that by using the latest technology, North Vietnam could be blasted "back to the Stone Age." Others pointed out that "terror" raids on civilian populations during the Second World War had not proved successful and claimed that a better strategy would be to bomb selected targets such as military bases and fuel depots.
Lyndon B. Johnson preferred the latter proposal but was aware he would have difficulty convincing the American public and the rest of the world that such action was justified. He therefore gave permission for a plan to be put into operation that he surmised would eventually enable him to carry out the bombing raids on North Vietnam.
Operation Plan 34A involved the sending of Asian mercenaries into North Vietnam to carry out acts of sabotage and the kidnapping or killing of communist officials. As part of this plan, it was decided to send US destroyers into North Vietnamese waters to obtain information on their naval defences.
On August 2, 1964, the US destroyer, "Maddox" was fired upon by three North Vietnamese torpedo boats in the Gulf of Tonkin. In retaliation, "Maddox" fired back and hit all three, one of which sank. The "Maddox" then retreated into international waters but the next day it was ordered to return to the Gulf of Tonkin.
Soon after entering North Vietnamese waters, Captain Herrick reported that he was under attack. However, later he sent a message that raised doubts about this: "Review of action makes reported contacts and torpedoes fired appear doubtful. Freak weather reports and over-eager sonar men may have accounted for many reports. No actual sightings by "Maddox". Suggest complete evaluation before further action."
read on
Johnson now had the excuse he had been waiting for and ignored Captain Herrick's second message. He ordered the bombing of four North Vietnamese torpedo-boat bases and an oil-storage depot that had been planned three months previously.
President Johnson then went on television and told the American people that: "Repeated acts of violence against the armed forces of the United States must be met not only with alert defence, but with a positive reply. That reply is being given as I speak tonight."
The Congress approved Johnson's decision to bomb North Vietnam and passed what has become known as the Gulf of Tonkin resolution by the Senate by 88 votes to 2 and in the House of Representatives by 416 to 0. This resolution authorised the President to take all necessary measures against Vietnam and the NLF.
Johnson's belief that the bombing raid on North Vietnam in August, 1964, would persuade Ho Chi Minh to cut off all aid to the NLF was unfounded. In the run-up to the November election, the NLF carried out a series of attacks and only two days before the election, the US air base near Saigon was mortared and four Americans were killed.
Barry Goldwater, the right-wing Republican candidate for the presidency, called for an escalation of the war against the North Vietnamese. In comparison to Goldwater, Lyndon B. Johnson was seen as the 'peace' candidate. People feared that Goldwater would send troops to fight in Vietnam. Johnson, on the other hand, argued that he was not willing: "to send American boys nine or ten thousand miles away from home to do what Asian boys ought to be doing for themselves."
In the election of November, 1964, the voters decided to reject Goldwater's aggressive policies against communism and Johnson won a landslide victory. What the American public did not know was that President Johnson was waiting until the election was over before carrying out the policies that had been advocated by his Republican opponent, Barry Goldwater.
President Johnson then went on television and told the American people that: "Repeated acts of violence against the armed forces of the United States must be met not only with alert defence, but with a positive reply. That reply is being given as I speak tonight."
The Congress approved Johnson's decision to bomb North Vietnam and passed what has become known as the Gulf of Tonkin resolution by the Senate by 88 votes to 2 and in the House of Representatives by 416 to 0. This resolution authorised the President to take all necessary measures against Vietnam and the NLF.
Johnson's belief that the bombing raid on North Vietnam in August, 1964, would persuade Ho Chi Minh to cut off all aid to the NLF was unfounded. In the run-up to the November election, the NLF carried out a series of attacks and only two days before the election, the US air base near Saigon was mortared and four Americans were killed.
Barry Goldwater, the right-wing Republican candidate for the presidency, called for an escalation of the war against the North Vietnamese. In comparison to Goldwater, Lyndon B. Johnson was seen as the 'peace' candidate. People feared that Goldwater would send troops to fight in Vietnam. Johnson, on the other hand, argued that he was not willing: "to send American boys nine or ten thousand miles away from home to do what Asian boys ought to be doing for themselves."
In the election of November, 1964, the voters decided to reject Goldwater's aggressive policies against communism and Johnson won a landslide victory. What the American public did not know was that President Johnson was waiting until the election was over before carrying out the policies that had been advocated by his Republican opponent, Barry Goldwater.
so do you honestly think with all that scandolous crap going on that the madox ACTUALLY was attacked?
have you seen the NV navy? A couple fishing boats....
09-27-2003 | 06:20 PM
#322
I need sleep...
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: NH
Soon after entering North Vietnamese waters, Captain Herrick reported that he was under attack. However, later he sent a message that raised doubts about this: "Review of action makes reported contacts and torpedoes fired appear doubtful. Freak weather reports and over-eager sonar men may have accounted for many reports. No actual sightings by "Maddox". Suggest complete evaluation before further action."
09-27-2003 | 06:22 PM
#323
I need sleep...
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From: NH
you actually beleive that?
09-27-2003 | 06:29 PM
#324
Thread Starter
my bum is on the swedish!
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: San Antonio, Texas
umm, the maddox was only attacked once. I just talked to my father, who was in the airforce during the war. I beleive his word over yours....
btw, he also said that the bay of tonkin situation was a bunch of bullshit.... Remember the USS Maine before the Spanish/American war?
btw, he also said that the bay of tonkin situation was a bunch of bullshit.... Remember the USS Maine before the Spanish/American war?
09-27-2003 | 09:14 PM
#325
I need sleep...
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From: NH
Originally posted by 18secFerio
umm, the maddox was only attacked once. I just talked to my father, who was in the airforce during the war. I beleive his word over yours....
btw, he also said that the bay of tonkin situation was a bunch of bullshit.... Remember the USS Maine before the Spanish/American war?
umm, the maddox was only attacked once. I just talked to my father, who was in the airforce during the war. I beleive his word over yours....
btw, he also said that the bay of tonkin situation was a bunch of bullshit.... Remember the USS Maine before the Spanish/American war?
09-27-2003 | 09:19 PM
#326
I need sleep...
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: NH
Not to discredit your father but here is another quote...
Taken from here...
http://www.hausarbeiten.de/rd/faeche...eit/amu/3.html
I agree that the Gulf of Tonkin may be not 100% truthful but the Madox was attacked once and then the second time is not for certain. But the second time was the excuse to go to war.
On July 31st, 1964 South Vietnamese troops made sabotage acts against the North Vietnames isles of Hon Me and Hon Niem. The reaction was, that North Vietnamese boats attacked the USS Madox in the southern Chinese sea. The boats were disctructed very fast, but Johnson could not use this as an aggression, because then the undercover operations would have been known. That’s why they ignored the attack. But a few weeks later the USS Madox was attacked again. It is not sure though, if this attack has really taken place, because the captain of the USS Madox withdrew the announcement of the attack later on. But it was too late. Johnson and McNamara presented the congress a resolution to bombard North Vietnam. The resolution was accepted. Johnson though was worried about the situation in Indochina, because 1964 was an election year and he did not want to send ground troops at that time.
http://www.hausarbeiten.de/rd/faeche...eit/amu/3.html
I agree that the Gulf of Tonkin may be not 100% truthful but the Madox was attacked once and then the second time is not for certain. But the second time was the excuse to go to war.
09-28-2003 | 07:00 PM
#327
Thread Starter
my bum is on the swedish!
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: San Antonio, Texas
even then, lets assume maybe the maddox was attacked by the north vietnamese....
they were doing coverert, sometimes-illegal missions. Again, the government got us in a mess, decided war was the solution, and many people died. I'm afraid if we elect a democrat in '04, something like this will happen again. He'll pull a Johnson and say 'no war' until elections are over.
I just wish- God forbid -we had a government that wasn't so secretive. Its completely contradictory to the ideas this country was founded on......
they were doing coverert, sometimes-illegal missions. Again, the government got us in a mess, decided war was the solution, and many people died. I'm afraid if we elect a democrat in '04, something like this will happen again. He'll pull a Johnson and say 'no war' until elections are over.
I just wish- God forbid -we had a government that wasn't so secretive. Its completely contradictory to the ideas this country was founded on......
10-05-2003 | 08:43 PM
#328
not OG but Old School
Joined: Apr 2003
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From: Decatur, IN
18secferio I have lost all respect I ever may have possibly had. I cannot believe that you actually think that everyone in the military cheats on their wife is a drunk or beats and rapes women. I have been an Active Duty Army soldier for almost 4 years now. Sure abuse happens but it happened one whole hell of a lot more in Colorado then it has happened since I have been in the Army. I am married, my wife is in Iraq she is a Military Police Officer, and I have never cheated on her nor will I. Granted a lot of Military people drink, but so does the rest of the United States population. I truly believe as a soldier that the war in Iraq is best for their people in the long run. My wife tells me on a weekly basis that it is amazing to have Iraqi children run up to her happily. My wife has been shot at so therefore she has seen more combat than probably everyone on this board combined. I didn't go because in exactly 94 days I will be a civilian again. One of the worst thing that I can think of happening would be another bitch a$$ democrat in office for eight years saying I did not have sexual relations with that woman, or his wife not recalling what had happened and then suddenly writing a book recalling all the details when she is getting paid to remember that is how Democrat's work nowdays. If you have never served one day in Military uniform I truly believe that you should not be able to be the President of the United States. In order for you to be Commander in Chief of the Military I don't think you should be a draft dodger who didn't serve cause mommy and daddy had money and sent you to England. Entirely not fair. My Grandfather fought in WW2 and the Korean war, I am a member of the VFW for serving in Korea in 2000. You may not know this but the United States soldiers in the Northern part of South Korea are considered a speed bump because we would never be able to stop their numbers from getting to Seoul where the United States and the ROK army would hold until units from America could relieve us. However Donald Rumsfield is seriously talking about a withdrawl of US soldiers from both Korea and Germany. If you have such a bad opinion of the very people wich volunteer to protect your freedoms then Fawk off move to Canada and France cause without people like me you wouldn't have your precious rights. Peace out mutha fuca
10-06-2003 | 06:53 AM
#330
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From: Tampa, FL
Originally posted by supermac88
I have been an Active Duty Army soldier for almost 4 years now.
I have been an Active Duty Army soldier for almost 4 years now.
Originally posted by supermac88
Sure abuse happens but it happened one whole hell of a lot more in Colorado then it has happened since I have been in the Army.
Sure abuse happens but it happened one whole hell of a lot more in Colorado then it has happened since I have been in the Army.
Originally posted by supermac88
I am married, my wife is in Iraq she is a Military Police Officer, and I have never cheated on her nor will I.
I am married, my wife is in Iraq she is a Military Police Officer, and I have never cheated on her nor will I.
Originally posted by supermac88
Granted a lot of Military people drink, but so does the rest of the United States population.
Granted a lot of Military people drink, but so does the rest of the United States population.
Originally posted by supermac88
I truly believe as a soldier that the war in Iraq is best for their people in the long run. My wife tells me on a weekly basis that it is amazing to have Iraqi children run up to her happily.
I truly believe as a soldier that the war in Iraq is best for their people in the long run. My wife tells me on a weekly basis that it is amazing to have Iraqi children run up to her happily.
Originally posted by supermac88
My wife has been shot at so therefore she has seen more combat than probably everyone on this board combined.
My wife has been shot at so therefore she has seen more combat than probably everyone on this board combined.
Originally posted by supermac88
One of the worst thing that I can think of happening would be another bitch a$$ democrat in office for eight years saying I did not have sexual relations with that woman, or his wife not recalling what had happened and then suddenly writing a book recalling all the details when she is getting paid to remember that is how Democrat's work nowdays.
One of the worst thing that I can think of happening would be another bitch a$$ democrat in office for eight years saying I did not have sexual relations with that woman, or his wife not recalling what had happened and then suddenly writing a book recalling all the details when she is getting paid to remember that is how Democrat's work nowdays.
Originally posted by supermac88
If you have never served one day in Military uniform I truly believe that you should not be able to be the President of the United States. In order for you to be Commander in Chief of the Military I don't think you should be a draft dodger who didn't serve cause mommy and daddy had money and sent you to England.
If you have never served one day in Military uniform I truly believe that you should not be able to be the President of the United States. In order for you to be Commander in Chief of the Military I don't think you should be a draft dodger who didn't serve cause mommy and daddy had money and sent you to England.
Originally posted by supermac88
My Grandfather fought in WW2 and the Korean war, I am a member of the VFW for serving in Korea in 2000.
My Grandfather fought in WW2 and the Korean war, I am a member of the VFW for serving in Korea in 2000.
Originally posted by supermac88
However Donald Rumsfield is seriously talking about a withdrawl of US soldiers from both Korea and Germany. If you have such a bad opinion of the very people wich volunteer to protect your freedoms then Fawk off move to Canada and France cause without people like me you wouldn't have your precious rights. Peace out mutha fuca
However Donald Rumsfield is seriously talking about a withdrawl of US soldiers from both Korea and Germany. If you have such a bad opinion of the very people wich volunteer to protect your freedoms then Fawk off move to Canada and France cause without people like me you wouldn't have your precious rights. Peace out mutha fuca
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