View Poll Results: How Would You Rate The Exterior Styling Of The TL?
Defintely Ugly
4
6.90%
Very Bland and Characterless
2
3.45%
Bland Yet Classy
4
6.90%
Attractive With Some Exceptions
9
15.52%
Attractive and Classy
18
31.03%
Very Attractive and Distinct
14
24.14%
Absolutely Stunning
7
12.07%
Voters: 58. You may not vote on this poll
2004 Acura TL Picture Gallery
09-15-2003, 12:24 PM
#51
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Originally posted by mayonaise
accord EX v6: $26,000
TSX w/o navi: $26,490
$490 difference. but are they in the same class? no, they are not. this alone defeats your 'class is determined mostly by price' argument. nobody does comparisons between the accord and the TSX. i thought i had made this abundantly clear, and this is why i brought it up.
alright, whatever you say, dude
so if hyundai all of a sudden made the sonata $40,000 it'd automatically be a 5 series competitor, right?
accord EX v6: $26,000
TSX w/o navi: $26,490
$490 difference. but are they in the same class? no, they are not. this alone defeats your 'class is determined mostly by price' argument. nobody does comparisons between the accord and the TSX. i thought i had made this abundantly clear, and this is why i brought it up.
alright, whatever you say, dude
so if hyundai all of a sudden made the sonata $40,000 it'd automatically be a 5 series competitor, right?
keeping yourself glued to the class is determined by price idea prevents you from seeing other details. you say the S2000 is loaded with value. well, the boxster and the Z4 are obviously luxury oriented cars. the S2000 offers almost none of the same amenities - its a very driver oriented car, hardly any luxuries, options, or perks. the interior is extremely simple, not luxurious in the least. the performance is second to none, but where is the rest of the value equation we see so clearly in the TL and other acuras? you get the performance, but nothing else. so in this case, its mostly the performance that identifies its class. if some car magazine were to do a 'luxury roadster' comparison, the S2000 would be left out. the S2000 is also regularly compared to cars like the miata and MR2 spyder, as well as cars like the SLK, boxster, and Z3/Z4/M Roadster.
the ES330 is a tough one. i'd say that it is competing with the 5 series, were it not for the fact that lexus also has the GS. the IS is obviously in competition with the 3 series, so i'd say the ES is somewhat in between. it would be odd for one company to have two cars that compete with each other in the same class, but like i said before, size isn't the only factor, and neither is price. the ES only comes in one format, with 225 hp. you neglected to mention that the GS, however, comes in two formats. a 220hp inline 6, and a 300 hp V8 - much more powerful than the ES. the GS300 also starts at $39,350, and the GS430 starts at $48,450. this car is much more suited to compete with the 5 series, even with your price theory.
the ES is much less performance oriented. the car doesn't even look sporty to begin with. afterall, who ever said every luxury car also had to be a sport car?
I35 and G35. very similar performance figures, very similar dimensions. the I35 has a longer wheel base and overall length. height, width, and interior dimensions are very similar, but i already made that clear, i'm not looking at those. the I35 is basically a maxima. it didn't recieve a redesign with the new maxima, however, and the maxima is being phased out after the current model cycle. i'm pretty sure the I35 will be as well, but for now i can't find any confirmation on that. the I35 didn't sell as well as infiniti had hoped, so the G35 is the replacement. so yes, they are both in competition with the 5 series, but one will be gone soon, and the other is the replacement. the old G20 was more like a 3 series competitor, but did a pretty bad job at it, being so underpowered. perhaps they will introduce another sentra-based sport sedan to compete with the 3 series and C class again.
the ES is much less performance oriented. the car doesn't even look sporty to begin with. afterall, who ever said every luxury car also had to be a sport car?
I35 and G35. very similar performance figures, very similar dimensions. the I35 has a longer wheel base and overall length. height, width, and interior dimensions are very similar, but i already made that clear, i'm not looking at those. the I35 is basically a maxima. it didn't recieve a redesign with the new maxima, however, and the maxima is being phased out after the current model cycle. i'm pretty sure the I35 will be as well, but for now i can't find any confirmation on that. the I35 didn't sell as well as infiniti had hoped, so the G35 is the replacement. so yes, they are both in competition with the 5 series, but one will be gone soon, and the other is the replacement. the old G20 was more like a 3 series competitor, but did a pretty bad job at it, being so underpowered. perhaps they will introduce another sentra-based sport sedan to compete with the 3 series and C class again.
I think you're being very hypocritical about the ES, GS and the TL parallel. I hardly 'neglected' about the GS coming in 2 engine format, because we only speaking about 6 cylinder sedans here so I didn't think it was needed to be mentioned.
But you're saying because the GS has a V8 option along with its base I6 along with its $40k price, its more more suited for the 5 series and because the ES comes in 1 engine format and "doesn't even look sporty to begin", you're going to place it as an entry level class desipte its larger size and the previous E-class wasn't "sporty" at all either? I agree on the GS being the 5 series/E-class competitor, but all your reasoning for the ES330 as an "in between" can be applied to the TL. I can probably agree that the IS300 and TSX are competitor with the A4 1.8t, 325i, and C230, while the ES330 competes directly with the TL, along side with the A4 3.0, 330i and C320.
The I35 continues on as a 2004 model and Infiniti is rumored at looking for a replacement for it to fit below the G35. And if both these, in its current state, are 5 series competitor you say, what the hell is the M45? A 7-series/S-class competitor? And if that's so, then that only leaves the Q45 is a Maybach competitor. [/sarcasm] Sorry to tell you, but nearly every publication and Nissan says you are wrong. The G35 and I35 entry level luxury and competes with the 3 series and such.
And the G20 was NOT a sentra-based product. :slap:
If you really want to find a 530i/E320 competitor in Honda, its the current lame-duck $45k RL, not the $32k TL. Look at the specs, powertrain, AND price. It all matches much better in ALL those categories to the 530i and E320.
09-15-2003, 01:07 PM
#52
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heres how i see comptetion and class
lower entry level: a4 1.8t, 325, C240 or was it 230 i forgot, tsx, is300, g35
upper entry level: a4 3.0, 330, C320, TL, ES330, I35
mid luxury-A6, 5 series, E class, RL, GS300/430, M45
high end luxury, A8, 7 series, S class, none from acura, LS430, and Q45
of course there are other things to take into account cause someone buying a E320 or another lower mid luxury car might look into a TL or another upper entry level car
lower entry level: a4 1.8t, 325, C240 or was it 230 i forgot, tsx, is300, g35
upper entry level: a4 3.0, 330, C320, TL, ES330, I35
mid luxury-A6, 5 series, E class, RL, GS300/430, M45
high end luxury, A8, 7 series, S class, none from acura, LS430, and Q45
of course there are other things to take into account cause someone buying a E320 or another lower mid luxury car might look into a TL or another upper entry level car
09-15-2003, 01:09 PM
#53
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Originally posted by kazi
I think you're being very hypocritical about the ES, GS and the TL parallel. I hardly 'neglected' about the GS coming in 2 engine format, because we only speaking about 6 cylinder sedans here so I didn't think it was needed to be mentioned.
I think you're being very hypocritical about the ES, GS and the TL parallel. I hardly 'neglected' about the GS coming in 2 engine format, because we only speaking about 6 cylinder sedans here so I didn't think it was needed to be mentioned.
Originally posted by kazi
But you're saying because the GS has a V8 option along with its base I6 along with its $40k price, its more more suited for the 5 series and because the ES comes in 1 engine format and "doesn't even look sporty to begin", you're going to place it as an entry level class desipte its larger size and the previous E-class wasn't "sporty" at all either? I agree on the GS being the 5 series/E-class competitor, but all your reasoning for the ES330 as an "in between" can be applied to the TL. I can probably agree that the IS300 and TSX are competitor with the A4 1.8t, 325i, and C230, while the ES330 competes directly with the TL, along side with the A4 3.0, 330i and C320.
But you're saying because the GS has a V8 option along with its base I6 along with its $40k price, its more more suited for the 5 series and because the ES comes in 1 engine format and "doesn't even look sporty to begin", you're going to place it as an entry level class desipte its larger size and the previous E-class wasn't "sporty" at all either? I agree on the GS being the 5 series/E-class competitor, but all your reasoning for the ES330 as an "in between" can be applied to the TL. I can probably agree that the IS300 and TSX are competitor with the A4 1.8t, 325i, and C230, while the ES330 competes directly with the TL, along side with the A4 3.0, 330i and C320.
why wasn't the previous E class sporty?
Originally posted by kazi
The I35 continues on as a 2004 model and Infiniti is rumored at looking for a replacement for it to fit below the G35. And if both these, in its current state, are 5 series competitor you say, what the hell is the M45? A 7-series/S-class competitor? And if that's so, then that only leaves the Q45 is a Maybach competitor. [/sarcasm] Sorry to tell you, but nearly every publication and Nissan says you are wrong. The G35 and I35 entry level luxury and competes with the 3 series and such.
And the G20 was NOT a sentra-based product. :slap:
The I35 continues on as a 2004 model and Infiniti is rumored at looking for a replacement for it to fit below the G35. And if both these, in its current state, are 5 series competitor you say, what the hell is the M45? A 7-series/S-class competitor? And if that's so, then that only leaves the Q45 is a Maybach competitor. [/sarcasm] Sorry to tell you, but nearly every publication and Nissan says you are wrong. The G35 and I35 entry level luxury and competes with the 3 series and such.
And the G20 was NOT a sentra-based product. :slap:
oops... primera. anyways, it used the same engine as the sentra, was about the same size. anyways at least i can admit when i'm wrong about something
Originally posted by kazi
If you really want to find a 530i/E320 competitor in Honda, its the current lame-duck $45k RL, not the $32k TL. Look at the specs, powertrain, AND price. It all matches much better in ALL those categories to the 530i and E320.
If you really want to find a 530i/E320 competitor in Honda, its the current lame-duck $45k RL, not the $32k TL. Look at the specs, powertrain, AND price. It all matches much better in ALL those categories to the 530i and E320.
you're hopeless and its pointless to argue with you. you need to get off this price-determines-class bullshit, and you keep resorting back to it. the civic LX is about $16,000, and so is the accord DX. but these are not in the same class, they do not compete with each otherthe ford crown victoria starts at $24,430, so i guess that means it competes with the accord EX v6. these are not in the same class, and do not compete with each other... there are so many things to disprove you completely, but you just keep ignoring them. meanwhile everything i say is either misinterpreted or flies right past you. so whatever you say, man
09-15-2003, 02:35 PM
#54
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Originally posted by mayonaise
no, i was talking about the entire 5 series and the entire E class, which include V8 engines. i don't know what you were talking about...
no, i was talking about the entire 5 series and the entire E class, which include V8 engines. i don't know what you were talking about...
i was implying that the ES is not a "sport sedan", the 5 series and TL are. it is therefore not suited to classify with them. why does the ES have to match one of BMWs classes, anyway? why does the Q45 and the M45 have to match one of BMWs classes? there is such a thing as in between. BMW and mercedes don't define classes of automobiles.
whatever, man. you're right and i'm wrong you're hopeless and its pointless to argue with you. you need to get off this price-determines-class bullshit, and you keep resorting back to it. the civic LX is about $16,000, and so is the accord DX. but these are not in the same class, they do not compete with each other
the ford crown victoria starts at $24,430, so i guess that means it competes with the accord EX v6. these are not in the same class, and do not compete with each other... there are so many things to disprove you completely, but you just keep ignoring them. meanwhile everything i say is either misinterpreted or flies right past you. so whatever you say, man [/B]
you're hopeless and its pointless to argue with you. you need to get off this price-determines-class bullshit, and you keep resorting back to it. the civic LX is about $16,000, and so is the accord DX. but these are not in the same class, they do not compete with each otherthe ford crown victoria starts at $24,430, so i guess that means it competes with the accord EX v6. these are not in the same class, and do not compete with each other... there are so many things to disprove you completely, but you just keep ignoring them. meanwhile everything i say is either misinterpreted or flies right past you. so whatever you say, man [/B]
And how the hell am I ignoring your arguements?
You started out your argument saying because the TL's larger size, its more fitted as a 5/E class classification. But I said that its because they're European specs limit them to their size in their home regions which are carried over to the USA. The ES, G35, and CTS are larger than the 3 series or C-class and they're considered as the Entry Level also.
You also threw out the HP difference between the TL from the 330i. And I said the I35 and G35 are similar high hp in their engine specs at which Acura wanted to make par or exceed.
You then use "entry level is defined as: 'of or being at the lowest level of a hierarchy'", but yet, you stated the I35 and CTS, even tho they are technically "the lowest level of a hierarchy", you still think they're classified directly with the mid-luxury 5 series/E-class.
I'm using Brand Class (mainstream vs premium) then Price range (entry: $25-40k; mid-luxury: $35k-55k; flagship: $50k+) as my category differentiation.
09-15-2003, 02:48 PM
#55
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Originally posted by integboi220
heres how i see comptetion and class
lower entry level: a4 1.8t, 325, C240 or was it 230 i forgot, tsx, is300, g35
upper entry level: a4 3.0, 330, C320, TL, ES330, I35
mid luxury-A6, 5 series, E class, RL, GS300/430, M45
high end luxury, A8, 7 series, S class, none from acura, LS430, and Q45
of course there are other things to take into account cause someone buying a E320 or another lower mid luxury car might look into a TL or another upper entry level car
heres how i see comptetion and class
lower entry level: a4 1.8t, 325, C240 or was it 230 i forgot, tsx, is300, g35
upper entry level: a4 3.0, 330, C320, TL, ES330, I35
mid luxury-A6, 5 series, E class, RL, GS300/430, M45
high end luxury, A8, 7 series, S class, none from acura, LS430, and Q45
of course there are other things to take into account cause someone buying a E320 or another lower mid luxury car might look into a TL or another upper entry level car
09-15-2003, 07:31 PM
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Originally posted by kazi
I guess you missed the point when I said: "Same 'value' mindset goes for the S2000, which is more focused on performance than size/features."
I guess you missed the point when I said: "Same 'value' mindset goes for the S2000, which is more focused on performance than size/features."
Originally posted by kazi
Well, if you're saying the GS is "much more suited to compete with the 5 series" because it has a V8 option, what does it mean if the TL doesn't have a V8 counterpart?
Well, if you're saying the GS is "much more suited to compete with the 5 series" because it has a V8 option, what does it mean if the TL doesn't have a V8 counterpart?
you neglected to mention that the GS, however, comes in two formats. a 220hp inline 6, and a 300 hp V8 - much more powerful than the ES. the GS300 also starts at $39,350, and the GS430 starts at $48,450. this car is much more suited to compete with the 5 series, even with your price theory.
Originally posted by kazi
Who is saying the ES has to match BMW? I'm saying the ES isn't a mid-class luxury, 'sport' tuned or not. Why does the Q45 and M45 have to match the BMW classes? Its because business must identify their target customer and direct and indirect competition. In this case, Infiniti has aimed the M45 as an competition for the 6 cylinder mid-luxuries. The Q45 was aimed squarely at the flagships of MB and BMW when it came out.
Who is saying the ES has to match BMW? I'm saying the ES isn't a mid-class luxury, 'sport' tuned or not. Why does the Q45 and M45 have to match the BMW classes? Its because business must identify their target customer and direct and indirect competition. In this case, Infiniti has aimed the M45 as an competition for the 6 cylinder mid-luxuries. The Q45 was aimed squarely at the flagships of MB and BMW when it came out.
Originally posted by kazi
Now you're getting childish with your replies. Don't be stupid and imply that I'm going to compare a LOADED midsize with a BASE large vehicle because thier price points overlap.
Now you're getting childish with your replies. Don't be stupid and imply that I'm going to compare a LOADED midsize with a BASE large vehicle because thier price points overlap.
the civic LX isn't loaded.
Originally posted by kazi
You can't accept the fact that nearly EVERY MAJOR PUBLICATION and the MANUFACTURERS has put the TL, ES, CTS, and G35 all as ENTRY LEVEL LUXURY class. There's a HUGE price gap difference from the 5 series/E class/A6 line to the TL, ES, CTS, and G35.
You can't accept the fact that nearly EVERY MAJOR PUBLICATION and the MANUFACTURERS has put the TL, ES, CTS, and G35 all as ENTRY LEVEL LUXURY class. There's a HUGE price gap difference from the 5 series/E class/A6 line to the TL, ES, CTS, and G35.
Originally posted by kazi
And how the hell am I ignoring your arguements?
You started out your argument saying because the TL's larger size, its more fitted as a 5/E class classification. But I said that its because they're European specs limit them to their size in their home regions which are carried over to the USA.
And how the hell am I ignoring your arguements?
You started out your argument saying because the TL's larger size, its more fitted as a 5/E class classification. But I said that its because they're European specs limit them to their size in their home regions which are carried over to the USA.
Originally posted by kazi
The ES, G35, and CTS are larger than the 3 series or C-class and they're considered as the Entry Level also.
The ES, G35, and CTS are larger than the 3 series or C-class and they're considered as the Entry Level also.
cadillac uses E classes, 5 series, A6s and the like in their CTS commercials. theres one where the CTS is going in the opposite direction on a track, "against" those cars, among others. we can thus deduce that even the automaker views the CTS as a competitor for the 5 series - otherwise they'd be pretty dumb to use it in their ads.
Originally posted by kazi
You also threw out the HP difference between the TL from the 330i. And I said the I35 and G35 are similar high hp in their engine specs at which Acura wanted to make par or exceed.
You also threw out the HP difference between the TL from the 330i. And I said the I35 and G35 are similar high hp in their engine specs at which Acura wanted to make par or exceed.
if you're making it an issue of horsepower, you can say that the 330i's horsepower is the same as the current base TL. BUT so is the 530i, and the E320 is four HP off - an insignificant difference. there is no 3 series (not including the M3, mind you) that is above 225 or even close to the type-S' 260 hp. and keep in mind, the new TL will have 270 bhp.
Originally posted by kazi
You then use "entry level is defined as: 'of or being at the lowest level of a hierarchy'", but yet, you stated the I35 and CTS, even tho they are technically "the lowest level of a hierarchy", you still think they're classified directly with the mid-luxury 5 series/E-class.
You then use "entry level is defined as: 'of or being at the lowest level of a hierarchy'", but yet, you stated the I35 and CTS, even tho they are technically "the lowest level of a hierarchy", you still think they're classified directly with the mid-luxury 5 series/E-class.
sure. but i now realize that the definition of entry-level probably wasn't suitable for my explanation.
Originally posted by kazi
I'm using Brand Class (mainstream vs premium) then Price range (entry: $25-40k; mid-luxury: $35k-55k; flagship: $50k+) as my category differentiation.
I'm using Brand Class (mainstream vs premium) then Price range (entry: $25-40k; mid-luxury: $35k-55k; flagship: $50k+) as my category differentiation.
why bring it up? because your argument from the beginning was that price determines class. you mentioned absolutely nothing about "premium brands" versus "mainstream brands". if you wanted to make that point, you should have made LONG ago. that said, you still consider the S2000 to be in the same class as the Z4, boxster, and SLK? yet that would be comparing a premium brand to a mainstream brand, not to mention luxury vs non-luxury as i mentioned before, and the enormous price differences. you just blow this off as if it doesn't mean anything, when in reality it challenges your position completely, especially taking "brand status" into account.
btw, i like how you edited your post to make it look like you didn't miss some of my comments. good job! i'm not interested in being enemies with you, i just disagree and i think you're not approaching your arguments very well. but whatever, i really don't care anymore. so why don't we just leave it at that?
09-15-2003, 08:24 PM
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Originally posted by mayonaise
same value mindset for the TL, right? is that why the TL is loaded with features, and has pretty good performance?
same value mindset for the TL, right? is that why the TL is loaded with features, and has pretty good performance?
looking back, i actually didn't say that the V8 makes the GS more suitable. if i did, please point it out, because i pretty clearly didn't. when i was saying this, i was separating the ES and the GS, and offering this as my reasoning. not to explain my opinion on the TL.
And I did agree the GS was compete along side directly with the mid-lux classification.
here you are contradicting yourself. infiniti's business must match itself to BMWs and mercedes, but lexus' doesn't? because that is exactly what you're saying here.
well, until now you didn't provide any reason to think otherwise, you just kept ignoring my examples.
the civic LX isn't loaded.
the civic LX isn't loaded.
Even with the Civic LX vs Accord DX argument, I already stated two different classes can OVERLAP in their price range.
and i've said again and again, price doesn't solely determine class. you keep insisting that it does, yet how can you use this to compare some cars to each other, and not others? how can anyone? the S2000 has a huge price discrepancy between its competitors, and you agree that they're still in the same class.. the accord and the TSX are both in the same price range, but you don't think they're in the same class...
yeah, and unless you can explain that better, i don't think anyone understands what point you're attempting to make.
ignored this too
actually, i didn't throw it out, i explained my position. the base TL matched the middle level 5 series, and both go up from there. the 330i is smaller, and its power stops at 225hp.
you completely ignored this
ignored this too
actually, i didn't throw it out, i explained my position. the base TL matched the middle level 5 series, and both go up from there. the 330i is smaller, and its power stops at 225hp.
you completely ignored this
why bring it up? because your argument from the beginning was that price determines class. you mentioned absolutely nothing about "premium brands" versus "mainstream brands". if you wanted to make that point, you should have made LONG ago. that said, you still consider the S2000 to be in the same class as the Z4, boxster, and SLK? yet that would be comparing a premium brand to a mainstream brand, not to mention luxury vs non-luxury as i mentioned before, and the enormous price differences. you just blow this off as if it doesn't mean anything, when in reality it challenges your position completely, especially taking "brand status" into account.
The S2000 is a special case because it was meant to be a premium roadster. Unlike the sedan market, which has at least 8 products in at least 7 classification total, there's not very many products in this field of $30-40k roadsters.
btw, i like how you edited your post to make it look like you didn't miss some of my comments. good job!
:joshers:
Oh look you messed up on the quote brakets.
Let's drop the stupid comments like this.
09-15-2003, 09:50 PM
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Originally posted by kazi
What the hell are you saying? The S2000 is aimed at being more of a pure track roadster, not a lux-roadster.
You were implying because it comes in 2 engion option, it was more suited in the same classification as the 5 series when you said "you neglected to mention that the GS, however, comes in two formats. a 220hp inline 6, and a 300 hp V8 - much more powerful than the ES. the GS300 also starts at $39,350, and the GS430 starts at $48,450. this car is much more suited to compete with the 5 series, even with your price theory. "
And I did agree the GS was compete along side directly with the mid-lux classification.
Uhhh...no, I did not say that. And that's not 'exactly' what I was saying. I said the ES330 is in the same classification as the 3 series and like, while the GS is classified with the 5 series and likes. I used that question statement to repeat your question that asked "why does the ES have to match one of BMWs classes, anyway?"
I wasn't pointing to the Civic LX, I was pointing to the Accord V6 vs the Crown Vic. Did you already forget you said "the ford crown victoria starts at $24,430, so i guess that means it competes with the accord EX v6." Even with the Civic LX vs Accord DX argument, I already stated two different classes can OVERLAP in their price range.
Holy shiit. I already stated my arguments on this. Why are you bringing up the mainstream vs luxury brand classification AGAIN! Go back and read my statements on these two points. I'm not going to repeat myself. And before you reply on this point, read below.
Show me one article from a major automobile publication that tests and compares a $30-35k TL, ES, CTS, I35, or G35 to a $42k 5 series.
I thought we implied that we were discusson ONLY luxury class brands. That's why I didn't mention anything about mainstream brands at all.
The S2000 is a special case because it was meant to be a premium roadster. Unlike the sedan market, which has at least 8 products in at least 7 classification total, there's not very many products in this field of $30-40k roadsters.
Yes, I missed your comments and had to go back and edit. It was an honest mistake. Whoopadee F'ing doo.
:joshers:
Oh look you messed up on the quote brakets. Let's drop the stupid comments like this.
What the hell are you saying? The S2000 is aimed at being more of a pure track roadster, not a lux-roadster.
You were implying because it comes in 2 engion option, it was more suited in the same classification as the 5 series when you said "you neglected to mention that the GS, however, comes in two formats. a 220hp inline 6, and a 300 hp V8 - much more powerful than the ES. the GS300 also starts at $39,350, and the GS430 starts at $48,450. this car is much more suited to compete with the 5 series, even with your price theory. "
And I did agree the GS was compete along side directly with the mid-lux classification.
Uhhh...no, I did not say that. And that's not 'exactly' what I was saying. I said the ES330 is in the same classification as the 3 series and like, while the GS is classified with the 5 series and likes. I used that question statement to repeat your question that asked "why does the ES have to match one of BMWs classes, anyway?"
I wasn't pointing to the Civic LX, I was pointing to the Accord V6 vs the Crown Vic. Did you already forget you said "the ford crown victoria starts at $24,430, so i guess that means it competes with the accord EX v6."
Even with the Civic LX vs Accord DX argument, I already stated two different classes can OVERLAP in their price range. Holy shiit. I already stated my arguments on this. Why are you bringing up the mainstream vs luxury brand classification AGAIN! Go back and read my statements on these two points. I'm not going to repeat myself. And before you reply on this point, read below.
Show me one article from a major automobile publication that tests and compares a $30-35k TL, ES, CTS, I35, or G35 to a $42k 5 series.
I thought we implied that we were discusson ONLY luxury class brands. That's why I didn't mention anything about mainstream brands at all.
The S2000 is a special case because it was meant to be a premium roadster. Unlike the sedan market, which has at least 8 products in at least 7 classification total, there's not very many products in this field of $30-40k roadsters.
Yes, I missed your comments and had to go back and edit. It was an honest mistake. Whoopadee F'ing doo.
:joshers:
Oh look you messed up on the quote brakets.
Let's drop the stupid comments like this.
nevermind. lost cause
09-17-2003, 04:29 PM
#59
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Here is my opinion.
Lexus has directly challenged the European Cars...... so does Infiniti.
IS & ES VS 3 VS C VS A4 VS G35 & I35
GS VS 5 VS E VS A6 VS M45
LS VS 7 VS S VS A8 VS Q45
By far, I think Lexus has been the only successful Japanese maker to be said as good as BMW, MB & Audi
In my view, IS is more direct competitor to 3 than ES. However, ES offers a remembrance of luxury of LS like the way that MB did with its S & C class. So both are pointing towards customers in Entry Luxury segment. Too bad, Lexus never did to have a IS coupe to compete with 3, C, A4 etc...
Ever since the continuation of Maxima and the introduction of G35, I have been wondering the life of I35. In some way, Maxima has been "TOO MUCH" alike I35 whether it is in performance or luxuries. With G35 labelling itself a luxurous performance sedan, I don't see anywhere I34 can continue its life. Maybe it could offer more luxuries like Lexus did with ES.
5, E & A6 and Co. are best suited with their V8s. However, a low end model with V6 can boost their sales. After all, the feeling to sit in a 5 is much more different than in a 3.
Speaking of I35 & ES, I think they are bland with 5 series (or E class) size and 3 series luxury and price. However, a base 5 starts almost the same as the top 3 in price. People would have cross shop ES, I35 when they are buying E320 or A6 3.0.
As for TL, my theory is the same. I think TSX is a more legitmate competitor towards 3. However, TSX did lack of the power that 330 has and was only enough to take on 325. And TL picks up where TSX left. TL offers what 330 has in luxury & performance. Even price it is very similar too. Nevertheless, if I am buying 530, TL would definitely be my list too. I have another question to ask you guys: Is CLK55 AMG a direct competitor to M3?
In Europe they classify car only by its size. 3, C, Accord are all considered as Mid-sized cars wherea 5, 7 & Co. are large cars. And in US, magazines tends to classify with entry level luxury car such as 3 series and mid-sized luxury car like E class. TL, ES & I35 are a bland of everything. My feeling is that ES & I35 are best described as entry luxurous mid-sized sedan and I think TL is moving away from entry level but not yet in E or 5 categories yet.
So here is what I thought of Acura marketing
TSX VS 325 & C240/230Compressor
TL VS 330&530
RL VS E320
PS: RL is the flagship of Acura. My feeling is it should be more appropriate comparing with LS, 7 series, S class & A8. However, it never has the power, sized or luxury that they carries. So I would stick it with E320. Also, LS is only good to compare with S430 & Q45 not with S500. Apparently, S500 is another category by itself along.
Conclusion: Manufacturs are trying to blur their targetting market making them as least competitors as possible. Even MB has concept like CLE & CLS. I think alot people believe "Bigger is Better".
In cities like NY or LA, I think I would like to have 330 or TSX as my ride cuz they are much easier to find parking lot but in areas like Vancouver, Seattle or Minesota, TL is too difficult to pass on.
Lexus has directly challenged the European Cars...... so does Infiniti.
IS & ES VS 3 VS C VS A4 VS G35 & I35
GS VS 5 VS E VS A6 VS M45
LS VS 7 VS S VS A8 VS Q45
By far, I think Lexus has been the only successful Japanese maker to be said as good as BMW, MB & Audi
In my view, IS is more direct competitor to 3 than ES. However, ES offers a remembrance of luxury of LS like the way that MB did with its S & C class. So both are pointing towards customers in Entry Luxury segment. Too bad, Lexus never did to have a IS coupe to compete with 3, C, A4 etc...
Ever since the continuation of Maxima and the introduction of G35, I have been wondering the life of I35. In some way, Maxima has been "TOO MUCH" alike I35 whether it is in performance or luxuries. With G35 labelling itself a luxurous performance sedan, I don't see anywhere I34 can continue its life. Maybe it could offer more luxuries like Lexus did with ES.
5, E & A6 and Co. are best suited with their V8s. However, a low end model with V6 can boost their sales. After all, the feeling to sit in a 5 is much more different than in a 3.
Speaking of I35 & ES, I think they are bland with 5 series (or E class) size and 3 series luxury and price. However, a base 5 starts almost the same as the top 3 in price. People would have cross shop ES, I35 when they are buying E320 or A6 3.0.
As for TL, my theory is the same. I think TSX is a more legitmate competitor towards 3. However, TSX did lack of the power that 330 has and was only enough to take on 325. And TL picks up where TSX left. TL offers what 330 has in luxury & performance. Even price it is very similar too. Nevertheless, if I am buying 530, TL would definitely be my list too. I have another question to ask you guys: Is CLK55 AMG a direct competitor to M3?
In Europe they classify car only by its size. 3, C, Accord are all considered as Mid-sized cars wherea 5, 7 & Co. are large cars. And in US, magazines tends to classify with entry level luxury car such as 3 series and mid-sized luxury car like E class. TL, ES & I35 are a bland of everything. My feeling is that ES & I35 are best described as entry luxurous mid-sized sedan and I think TL is moving away from entry level but not yet in E or 5 categories yet.
So here is what I thought of Acura marketing
TSX VS 325 & C240/230Compressor
TL VS 330&530
RL VS E320
PS: RL is the flagship of Acura. My feeling is it should be more appropriate comparing with LS, 7 series, S class & A8. However, it never has the power, sized or luxury that they carries. So I would stick it with E320. Also, LS is only good to compare with S430 & Q45 not with S500. Apparently, S500 is another category by itself along.
Conclusion: Manufacturs are trying to blur their targetting market making them as least competitors as possible. Even MB has concept like CLE & CLS. I think alot people believe "Bigger is Better".
In cities like NY or LA, I think I would like to have 330 or TSX as my ride cuz they are much easier to find parking lot but in areas like Vancouver, Seattle or Minesota, TL is too difficult to pass on.
09-17-2003, 05:53 PM
#60
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Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: CA
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Originally posted by Helmethead
Here is my opinion.
Lexus has directly challenged the European Cars...... so does Infiniti.
IS & ES VS 3 VS C VS A4 VS G35 & I35
GS VS 5 VS E VS A6 VS M45
LS VS 7 VS S VS A8 VS Q45
By far, I think Lexus has been the only successful Japanese maker to be said as good as BMW, MB & Audi
In my view, IS is more direct competitor to 3 than ES. However, ES offers a remembrance of luxury of LS like the way that MB did with its S & C class. So both are pointing towards customers in Entry Luxury segment. Too bad, Lexus never did to have a IS coupe to compete with 3, C, A4 etc...
Ever since the continuation of Maxima and the introduction of G35, I have been wondering the life of I35. In some way, Maxima has been "TOO MUCH" alike I35 whether it is in performance or luxuries. With G35 labelling itself a luxurous performance sedan, I don't see anywhere I34 can continue its life. Maybe it could offer more luxuries like Lexus did with ES.
5, E & A6 and Co. are best suited with their V8s. However, a low end model with V6 can boost their sales. After all, the feeling to sit in a 5 is much more different than in a 3.
Speaking of I35 & ES, I think they are bland with 5 series (or E class) size and 3 series luxury and price. However, a base 5 starts almost the same as the top 3 in price. People would have cross shop ES, I35 when they are buying E320 or A6 3.0.
As for TL, my theory is the same. I think TSX is a more legitmate competitor towards 3. However, TSX did lack of the power that 330 has and was only enough to take on 325. And TL picks up where TSX left. TL offers what 330 has in luxury & performance. Even price it is very similar too. Nevertheless, if I am buying 530, TL would definitely be my list too. I have another question to ask you guys: Is CLK55 AMG a direct competitor to M3?
In Europe they classify car only by its size. 3, C, Accord are all considered as Mid-sized cars wherea 5, 7 & Co. are large cars. And in US, magazines tends to classify with entry level luxury car such as 3 series and mid-sized luxury car like E class. TL, ES & I35 are a bland of everything. My feeling is that ES & I35 are best described as entry luxurous mid-sized sedan and I think TL is moving away from entry level but not yet in E or 5 categories yet.
So here is what I thought of Acura marketing
TSX VS 325 & C240/230Compressor
TL VS 330&530
RL VS E320
PS: RL is the flagship of Acura. My feeling is it should be more appropriate comparing with LS, 7 series, S class & A8. However, it never has the power, sized or luxury that they carries. So I would stick it with E320. Also, LS is only good to compare with S430 & Q45 not with S500. Apparently, S500 is another category by itself along.
Conclusion: Manufacturs are trying to blur their targetting market making them as least competitors as possible. Even MB has concept like CLE & CLS. I think alot people believe "Bigger is Better".
In cities like NY or LA, I think I would like to have 330 or TSX as my ride cuz they are much easier to find parking lot but in areas like Vancouver, Seattle or Minesota, TL is too difficult to pass on.
Here is my opinion.
Lexus has directly challenged the European Cars...... so does Infiniti.
IS & ES VS 3 VS C VS A4 VS G35 & I35
GS VS 5 VS E VS A6 VS M45
LS VS 7 VS S VS A8 VS Q45
By far, I think Lexus has been the only successful Japanese maker to be said as good as BMW, MB & Audi
In my view, IS is more direct competitor to 3 than ES. However, ES offers a remembrance of luxury of LS like the way that MB did with its S & C class. So both are pointing towards customers in Entry Luxury segment. Too bad, Lexus never did to have a IS coupe to compete with 3, C, A4 etc...
Ever since the continuation of Maxima and the introduction of G35, I have been wondering the life of I35. In some way, Maxima has been "TOO MUCH" alike I35 whether it is in performance or luxuries. With G35 labelling itself a luxurous performance sedan, I don't see anywhere I34 can continue its life. Maybe it could offer more luxuries like Lexus did with ES.
5, E & A6 and Co. are best suited with their V8s. However, a low end model with V6 can boost their sales. After all, the feeling to sit in a 5 is much more different than in a 3.
Speaking of I35 & ES, I think they are bland with 5 series (or E class) size and 3 series luxury and price. However, a base 5 starts almost the same as the top 3 in price. People would have cross shop ES, I35 when they are buying E320 or A6 3.0.
As for TL, my theory is the same. I think TSX is a more legitmate competitor towards 3. However, TSX did lack of the power that 330 has and was only enough to take on 325. And TL picks up where TSX left. TL offers what 330 has in luxury & performance. Even price it is very similar too. Nevertheless, if I am buying 530, TL would definitely be my list too. I have another question to ask you guys: Is CLK55 AMG a direct competitor to M3?
In Europe they classify car only by its size. 3, C, Accord are all considered as Mid-sized cars wherea 5, 7 & Co. are large cars. And in US, magazines tends to classify with entry level luxury car such as 3 series and mid-sized luxury car like E class. TL, ES & I35 are a bland of everything. My feeling is that ES & I35 are best described as entry luxurous mid-sized sedan and I think TL is moving away from entry level but not yet in E or 5 categories yet.
So here is what I thought of Acura marketing
TSX VS 325 & C240/230Compressor
TL VS 330&530
RL VS E320
PS: RL is the flagship of Acura. My feeling is it should be more appropriate comparing with LS, 7 series, S class & A8. However, it never has the power, sized or luxury that they carries. So I would stick it with E320. Also, LS is only good to compare with S430 & Q45 not with S500. Apparently, S500 is another category by itself along.
Conclusion: Manufacturs are trying to blur their targetting market making them as least competitors as possible. Even MB has concept like CLE & CLS. I think alot people believe "Bigger is Better".
In cities like NY or LA, I think I would like to have 330 or TSX as my ride cuz they are much easier to find parking lot but in areas like Vancouver, Seattle or Minesota, TL is too difficult to pass on.