mayonaise

isn't the TL closer in size to the 5 series?

i'm not sure if i really like the new TL or not. the design is good, but its not drop dead gorgeous.. there are a lot of weird stylings they put into it, and i can't get over a lot of them. i don't like the black plastic around the license plate in the rear. makes it look like a CTS. from the side profile pics, the car looks really long. this is partially due to the large overhang. i think one reason for the overhang is because it is FWD? not sure... anyway

the interior is beautiful. i can't complain about that at all, except i think it'd be neat if they offered different color gauge lighting, instead of just purple.

as people have pointed out before, honda used the embossed lettering on the integra bumper, so its nothing new for them.

i'm surprised the mirrors are all body colored. since most higher end cars now are going for that european look, where the base of the mirror is black and the rest is body colored... i like that a lot better, and the base of the TL mirror has a really weird shape. one thing i have been noticing on newer hondas, is the mirrors are friggin huge! new accord, new TL, tsx... i don't like that at all

the little bump of an antenna on the roof, above the rear windshield looks funny, but is way better than the shark fins on the new BMW 5 series and 7 series

compared to its competitors, which i view to be the E class and the 5 series, i don't know if the new TL stands a good chance of really competing. it'll offer a great, valuable alternative, but will still not be recognized as an equal. the styling is good, but stands out of the crowd a lot. whether that is a good thing or not is up to you. i'd perfer a less angular and pointy design, personally. overall the design is good, yes. this and the new TSX are some of the best designs honda has come up with since the 2nd gen legend - but the new TL doesn't quite match up, in my opinion. i love the 2nd gen legend, and i'd like honda do return to that design and try to base a new car (maybe the new legend!!) off of it, instead of what they have right now. its a timeless design and still the best that honda has ever made.

that said, audis and VWs are ****ing boring as hell. i don't understand how auto critics can always get off on them. just look at the body panels, they are even more featureless than hondas and toyotas. the overall design tends to look good, and very european. honda has had a hard time trying to match that kind of look, especially with the new accord. but realistically, i see nothing special about the current generation of audi and VW cars in terms of design. BMWs and mercedes look a lot better - well, at least until the rest of the bangle-fied models come around...

kazi

No.

TSX = 325i, C230, A4 1.8t, S40, Saab 9-3 Linear, Jag X 2.5

TL = 330i, C320, A4 3.0, S60, Saab 9-3 Arc/Vector, Jag X 3.0, G35

RL = 530i, E320, A6 3.0, S80, Saab 9-5, Jag S-Type V6, M45, GS300

Why is it that you're not suprised about the embossed bumper, but surprised at the all body colored mirrors when most of Acuras and other Japanese luxury models have always had all body colored mirrors. Oh, and Mercedes uses all body colored mirror.

98CoupeV6

Big Mirrors = Big :thumbup: I love being able to see ish

mayonaise

oh really?
current TL
length: 192.5"
height: 53.7"
width: ~61.0"
legroom, front/rear: 42.4" / 35.0"
headroom, front/rear: 38.2" / 36.5"
shoulder room, front/rear: 56.2" / 55.7"
hiproom, front/rear: 53.3" / 53.3"
turning radius: 36.8' (TL), 40.0' (type-S)
horsepower: 225 (TL), 260 (type-S)

source

current 5 series
length: 188"
height: 56.5"
width: 70.9"
legroom, front/rear: 41.7" / 34.2"
headroom, front/rear: n/a
shoulder room, front/rear: 56.8" / 55.9"
hiproom, front/rear: n/a
turning radius: 37.1'
horsepower: 184 (525i), 225 (530i), 290 (540i)

source

mercedes E class
length: 190.3"
width: 71.3"
height: 57"
legroom, front/rear: 41.3" / 36.1"
headroom, front/rear: 37.6" / 37.2"
shoulder room, front/rear: 56.3" / 57.1"
hiproom, front/rear: 54.9" / 55.9"
turning radius: 37.4'
horsepower: 221 (e320), 302 (e500)

source

bmw 3 series
length: 176"
width: 68.5"
height: 55.7"
legroom, front/rear: 41.4" / 34.6"
headroom, front/rear: 38.4" / 37.5"
shoulder room, front/rear: 54.4" / 54.2"
hiproom, front/rear: n/a
turning radius: 34.4'
horsepower: 184 (325i) / 225 (330i)

source



so lets see...
besides the height, EVERY SINGLE DIMENSION on the current TL, with the exception of those not available at edmunds, is within THREE INCHES of both the 5 series and the E class. the length of the TL is about four inches off the 5 series. :fawk:

compared to the 3 series, the interior dimensions are very similar, but the exterior... almost a 20 inch difference in length. that is almost two feet. the height and widths are similar, but that should be expected in order to retain the passenger room in the 3 series.

if you're making it an issue of horsepower, you can say that the 330i's horsepower is the same as the current base TL. BUT so is the 530i, and the E320 is four HP off - an insignificant difference. there is no 3 series (not including the M3, mind you) that is above 225 or even close to the type-S' 260 hp. and keep in mind, the new TL will have 270 bhp.

so please explain why is it that you think the TL is supposed to be competing directly with the 330i, and not the 5 series and E class???

mirrors:
even honda as a company has been leaning in that direction heavily. observe: TSX, RSX, MDX, accord, pilot, odyssey, CR-V, insight, and civic SI all have mirrors like i described, which is not entirely body colored. what does that leave? the civics, the NSX, RL, and the TL. the element has black plastic mirrors - not body colored.
that is:
4/14 that have body colored mirrors
1/14 that have entirely black plastic mirrors
9/14 that have black and body colored mirrors, like i said.

out of the acuras, not including the discontinued CL, that is half and half (3/6). so how do you justify saying MOST acuras?

pilot mirrors
odyssey mirrors
insight mirrors
CR-V mirrors
civic SI mirrors
MDX mirrors
TSX mirrors
RSX mirrors
accord mirrors
accord coupe mirrors

integboi220

but the new TL is gonna be shorter than the current one i think at 186 inches

mayonaise

which makes it still 10 inches longer than the 3 series.

kazi

Yes, REALLY!!!

Acura TSX ($26,990) - 200hp
Audi A4 1.8t ($25,760) - 170hp
BMW 325i ($28,495) - 184hp
Saab 9-3 Linear ($26,670) - 175hp
Volvo S40 ($24,595) - 170hp
Jaguar X-Type 2.5 ($29,970) - 195hp
MB C230 ($28,610) - 189hp

Acura TL (est. ~$32,000) - 270hp
Audi A4 3.0 ($31,840) - 220hp
BMW 330i ($35,295) - 225hp
Saab 9-3 Arc/Vector ($30,860) - 210hp
Volvo S60 2.5T ($30,295) - 208hp
Jaguar X-Type 3.0 ($36,980) - 227hp
MB C320 ($39,350) - 220hp
Lexus ES330 ($32,350) - 225hp
Infiniti G35s/leather ($30,395) - 260hp
Infiniti I35 ($29,645) - 255hp

It's because European cars uses EUROPEAN SPECS which are smaller and more narrow than USA specs. The TL is more designed for the US market than it is for the Euro market. While the TL (Inspire/Sabre) is sold under a different name in Japan and Europe, its large bulk sales is from the US market, because US likes BIG cars. That's why you'll find a smaller, more narrow version of the Accord in those regions while the US gets an upsized Accord.

Look, if you're going by dimension specs, then that means the Lexus ES330 and Infiniti I35 is a BMW 5 series fighter. :rofl:!!! And what does it say when the GS300's exterior length and interior head and hip room is SMALLER than the less expensive ES330? And what about the I35 being wider and has more room than the M45 and BMW 5 series! :eek3: The G35s is less than 2" shorter than the BMW 5 series in nearly all exterior specs!

Take a look at the specs for the CTS, G35, ES330, and TL-S again. You'll see that they are typically larger than the small entry level luxury from the Europeans, by a significant amount. Same applies for HP.

And I'm not the only one who thinks the TL competes with the 330i and not the 530.

Edmunds 2002-2003 Entry-Level Luxury Sport Sedans Comparison Test

Car and Driver's $35k sedan Shootout

Road and Track: The Best-of-All-Worlds Bunch



I can't believe we're arguing on this. But my point was not just current models, go back to some of the past Acuras too. They 'had' body colored mirrors. I was mainly asking, why do reason out that the embossed bumpers are ok because they were on previous Acuras while you're 'surprised' about the mirrors being all body colored, when most of previous Acuras had body colored mirrors, including the Integras.

mayonaise

let me just clarify a few things.

class is not determined by price
what i am arguing, is that the TL is in the same class as the 5 series and the E class. it competes with them - not exclusively, but it does compete with them. you seem to be insisting that the TL in no way competes with these cars, and that the TL competes only with the cars you listed. you continually seem to be implying that the class of a car is determined by its cost. if that were true, then certainly, no one in their right mind would even think about comparing a $32,000 S2000 with a $40,250 Z4 3.0i and a $42,600 boxster (automobile magazine, august 2003).

they do comparison tests based on price for people that have a set price range and want a certain type of car. (like sedan, or luxury sport sedan). hence, the "$35k sedan Shootout".

entry level is defined as:
"of or being at the lowest level of a hierarchy". the TSX is now at the lowest level of hierarchy of acura's sport sedans, whereas the TL used to be acura's entry level sport sedan, between the demise of the integra 4 door and the arrival of the TSX. at the time edmunds did your 2002-2003 Entry-Level Luxury Sport Sedans Comparison Test, the TSX wasn't even out yet. so they couldn't compare it even if they wanted to. if/when the TSX type-S comes out, i think they'll start comparing THAT to the 330i.

in reality, the class of a car cannot be determined by any one factor alone. i never said its ONLY determined by size. its a combination of many things, including, but not limited to size, power, and cost. the cars that a certain model competes with may have more to do with price, but it is still not only defined by it

any car will naturally compete with another car thats in its price range, but that doesn't determine the class of a car. the new accord, for example, is a little larger than the TSX, the price of the EX v6 is pretty similar to the price of TSX, the interiors of both cars are similar - luxurious and almost identical. the power of the accord v6 is even higher. but in any of those magazine comparisons, have they compared the accord to the TSX? they'll compare the accord to a camry, altima, or even a passat - but not an audi, acura, BMW, or mercedes. there is even more at stake than just the price, power, and size.

please read my original post better.
its nothing new for them, that is all i said. did i say i was or wasn't surprised? i actually am surprised that they used that, because i think its cheap looking, and i didn't like it to begin with. but what i said was that it wasn't anything new.

body colored mirrors are nothing new for honda as well and i never said it wasn't, but my point lies in the numbers i posted - they speak for themselves. when only 4/14 models have body colored mirrors, and 9/14 don't, there's a pretty good chance that a new model won't either. in addition, audi, VW, BMW, lexus, infiniti, others, and honda have all been going for the black plastic/body colored mirror design recently. so i only expected the next new honda to have them as well. so, i was surprised.

kazi

Where heck are you going with the mainstream midsize comparison? I'm not arguing about mainstream vs. luxury brands and I know they are separate classes. My point when I used the Accord was point out that manufacturers design cars to be larger if it is to serve mostly for the USA market.

Class IS determined by mostly by PRICE in this crowded field of sedans, and probably the most important determining factor.

The ONLY factor you have in your argument is SIZE, but there's NO WAY you can compare a $32-33k LOADED car to a $40-50k class car. And again, if size is your factor you're using, then it's very laughable that you should say the rebadged Camry Lexus ES330 is 5 series competitor because it too is larger and MORE EXPENSIVE than the TL.

You're saying one factor isn't the only determining factor and I do agree to a certain point, but you're still hammering on just the size. Acura has always focused at providing a high value for premium/luxury car shoppers to give them more than they're money for. Two of these 'value' is giving more room and power with the TL. Room to match that of the ES330 and hp and performance to match the I35 then and G35 now. All those Japanese entry-level luxury are within and/or exceeded the size specs of the 5 series. Same 'value' mindset goes for the S2000, which is more focused on performance than size/features. Priced at the lower end of Z3/Z4 2.5 and base Boxster with performance and handling to compete with the higher end of those models.

So I ask you again. Do you consider the $30-35k Lexus ES330, Infiniti I35, and Infiniti G35 a $40-45k BMW 5 series competitor because of their size being similar to the 5 series and them not being, at their current status or previous status for the I35, the "lowest level of a hierarchy". How about the CTS, based on its larger size than the 5 series?

And about the mirror thing, I don't care anymore. It's such a moot and stupid subject of discussion to argue on body colored vs black base+body colored mirror.

mayonaise

accord EX v6: $26,000
TSX w/o navi: $26,490

$490 difference. but are they in the same class? no, they are not. this alone defeats your 'class is determined mostly by price' argument. nobody does comparisons between the accord and the TSX. i thought i had made this abundantly clear, and this is why i brought it up.
alright, whatever you say, dude
so if hyundai all of a sudden made the sonata $40,000 it'd automatically be a 5 series competitor, right?
the only factor i brought up was size, yet i clearly made it obvious in my last post that i believe size is not the only factor. acura and other japanese car companies do offer a high level of value for many of their luxury models. you have to realize, however, that acura and infiniti (and lexus, but to a lesser extent) do not hold the same kind of status as mercedes, BMW, jaguar and audi. they are of course renowned for their quality and reliability, but as luxury brands, they still do not compare in terms of name to european luxury brands - NAME ONLY, mind you. we all know europeans' car quality cannot compete with the japanese. if they try to sell the TL at the same price as a 5 series, they won't sell nearly as many. do you know how many times i've seen people on this board say something like "its just a honda", or "save your money for a better car"? there is such a strong mentality that BMWs and other european cars are so superior. japanese luxury cars are loaded with features and priced below their competitors so that they can sell. until they build their reputations, thats what they have to do.

keeping yourself glued to the class is determined by price idea prevents you from seeing other details. you say the S2000 is loaded with value. well, the boxster and the Z4 are obviously luxury oriented cars. the S2000 offers almost none of the same amenities - its a very driver oriented car, hardly any luxuries, options, or perks. the interior is extremely simple, not luxurious in the least. the performance is second to none, but where is the rest of the value equation we see so clearly in the TL and other acuras? you get the performance, but nothing else. so in this case, its mostly the performance that identifies its class. if some car magazine were to do a 'luxury roadster' comparison, the S2000 would be left out. the S2000 is also regularly compared to cars like the miata and MR2 spyder, as well as cars like the SLK, boxster, and Z3/Z4/M Roadster.
sure. but i now realize that the definition of entry-level probably wasn't suitable for my explanation. cadillac uses E classes, 5 series, A6s and the like in their CTS commercials. theres one where the CTS is going in the opposite direction on a track, "against" those cars, among others. we can thus deduce that even the automaker views the CTS as a competitor for the 5 series - otherwise they'd be pretty dumb to use it in their ads.

the ES330 is a tough one. i'd say that it is competing with the 5 series, were it not for the fact that lexus also has the GS. the IS is obviously in competition with the 3 series, so i'd say the ES is somewhat in between. it would be odd for one company to have two cars that compete with each other in the same class, but like i said before, size isn't the only factor, and neither is price. the ES only comes in one format, with 225 hp. you neglected to mention that the GS, however, comes in two formats. a 220hp inline 6, and a 300 hp V8 - much more powerful than the ES. the GS300 also starts at $39,350, and the GS430 starts at $48,450. this car is much more suited to compete with the 5 series, even with your price theory.

the ES is much less performance oriented. the car doesn't even look sporty to begin with. afterall, who ever said every luxury car also had to be a sport car?

I35 and G35. very similar performance figures, very similar dimensions. the I35 has a longer wheel base and overall length. height, width, and interior dimensions are very similar, but i already made that clear, i'm not looking at those. the I35 is basically a maxima. it didn't recieve a redesign with the new maxima, however, and the maxima is being phased out after the current model cycle. i'm pretty sure the I35 will be as well, but for now i can't find any confirmation on that. the I35 didn't sell as well as infiniti had hoped, so the G35 is the replacement. so yes, they are both in competition with the 5 series, but one will be gone soon, and the other is the replacement. the old G20 was more like a 3 series competitor, but did a pretty bad job at it, being so underpowered. perhaps they will introduce another sentra-based sport sedan to compete with the 3 series and C class again.