Yup, agreed...

 

With my old NA setup I made 194whp and 130lbs of tq. I was running:

Spoon header $800
Spoon head gasket $120
2.5 inch test pipe from Godspeed $50
stock exhaust PRICELESS... :lol:
Toda Spec B's and upgraded springs
Toda cam gears $1500
AEM CAI $230
B&M FPR $50?
VAFC $330
TUNING $500

not bad but not worth it to me.....should have boosted from the go and would be making about 350 by now..... :lol:

 

SMSP wrote:

[quote:f378809df5]Did you see the full Toda curve or only get the peak numbers? George's engine produced a peak of 138 lb-ft and made 125 lb-ft or more from 4300-8000. [/quote:f378809df5]

I have not seen the curve for the Toda project ITR's current set-up, but there is a curve posted for a previous iteration of the same car with fewer mods and about 197 whp. Check it out at www.dynocenter.com/00R_BspecTodas.html.

The mods at the time were:
• TODA Racing Spec B camshafts__________________________$980
• TODA Racing GEN2 Campulleys__________________________$300
• TODA Racing Oil Pump Gear_____________________________$300
• TODA Racing High Power Clutch Kit (not part of hp upgrade)
• AEM Intake__________________________________________$2 15
• MUGEN 4-1 Header____________________________________$975
• RANDOM TECH Catalytic Converter (modified to fit larger JDM flange)
• MUGEN (~2.36" dia) twin-loop muffler & USDM Mugen (60mm only) B-pipe
(a little hard to price the exhaust listed)_____________________$975

I assume since TODA recommends it that their valve springs were also used, but they were not listed on the test.
• TODA Racing Dual Valve Springs_________________________$360


Total_____________________________________________ __$4105

That is a 34 hp increase giving a cost of $121/whp compared to the $129/whp increase for the current TODA setup.

You can judge for yourself by looking at the dyno curve that for the blue curve torque was 125 lb-ft from 5200-8200 RPM with a peak of about 134 lb-ft. The difference between the Toda car now and before is the change from a Mugen to a Toda header (current muffler setup not listed), addition of high compression pistons and head gasket, ported head and titanium reatainers. The earlier mod is quite close to 200 whp, and obviously is much closer to just bolt-ons, since the pistons, head gasket and and head don't need to come off. That is a lot of work for an extra 8 whp! Perhaps one of Dave's headers and exhaust sytems intead of the Toda/Mugen listed but with the other TODA mods would take it over the 200 mark without all the engine work. What do you think?

 

SMSP wrote:

[quote:a49ad4511b]Here is what was done to George's car.

Block: Stock B18C5 with 70k miles
Cylinder Head Gasket: Stock
Cylinder Head: Valve Job and Porting performed by DFE. This was his full street P&P, $900
Cams: Stock
Cam Gears: Skunk2, Retail $250
Intake: DFE again but only work done in the runners
Intake Manifold Gasket: Hondata Race
Injectors: Stock ITR 240cc but with the RC Engineering touch
CAI: Custom SMSP with smooth taper to match TB ID, I don't have a price on this, we've since put the Comp Tech back on to keep it quiet.
Air Filter: K&N
ECU: Hondata S100, please check Hondata web site for prices
Tuning: SGT, check with Steve for rates.
Header: SMSP w/ aftermarket cam "option" $975
Cat: Carsound/SMSP 93506 OBDI, $165
Cat Back: Custom 2-1/2" SMSP w/ (2) light weight resonators and (1) rear muffler Pricing not set yet.[/quote:a49ad4511b]

The missing prices here are the Hondata S100 which George gave as $650
Intake Manifold Gasket: Hondata Race $65
Injectors: Stock ITR 240cc but with the RC Engineering touch $100
CAI: Comptech to keep it quiet with filter $358
Cat Back: Custom 2-1/2" SMSP (I'm guessing) $500

Total to match George's car (without tuning or labour) $3963

This is for a 192-162 stock whp gain of 30 hp, which gives $132/hp.
The 205 hp Toda car is somehwere between $129-$153/hp depending upon unlisted costs
The old 197 hp Toda car was $121/hp with no costs for ECU changes
Erik B's 194 hp NA motor above adds up to $3080 or $96/hp (in this very short poll, Erik wins the cheapest hp increase award even though it was unsatisfactory for him!)

The above engines are quite different in terms of mods, some with headwork, some with cam changes, one with piston changes. All with header changes but some with stock exhaust. They do all have the common factor that you are looking at a range of $96/hp to $132/hp or more to get even close to 200 whp, plus tuning and labour costs. Thus at these rates to get to 200 whp, it is going to cost at least $3648 to $5016, and I suspect much closer to the high number as the last hp costs a lot more than the first hp.

It would be interesting to know what just high performance headers can do. Hytech on their web site claim a 22 whp increase on an ITR with just their complete header/exhaust for $1300+800=$2100 or $95/hp. While this is likely the most expensive header out there, if the numbers are true it is about the best $/hp one could spend. However I have no idea what hidden costs might be required to get that extra 22 hp. Perhaps Dave can tell us what hp one of his complete systems makes in comparison.

Also has anyone else got a motor combo with cost for a 200 whp (or getting there) ITR NA motor?

 

Wow. Does an Icebox really cost that much? I really think you can get them quite a bit cheaper if you keep your eyes open. I swear, I don't remember paying anything close to that.

Please keep in mind that my car was put together with the specific goal of:[list:044b11ea05]
(1)Maintaining on-street tractability and good feel on the street, and

(2)Giving me a car to use on the track that would account for my driving style and experience level, and keep me from getting caught off the cam in a corner.[/list:u:044b11ea05]

I am absolutely positive that there's an easy five or more horsepower in there, if they were going for peak HP.

In my case, it would've been a mistake to go for peak HP, so (forgive me) I think this skews your dollars per horsepower figgers a little bit.

 

I paid $150 for a used Icebox with filter. I run the stock intake arm and see no ill effects to it.

 

George also uses the stock intake arm, but the dyno in question shouldnt include the price for the ice box, since it wasnt used. Dave (SMS) made a filter on a stick combo.

With that being said, the same car (George's ITR) made 182.xx whp with the following mod's. Using the same "160 hp" number from above means a 22 hp increase. (just to note, I am pretty sure Georges ITR only made 158 hp in stock trim)

SMS catback - $500 (estimated cost)
OEM JDM ITR header - $350
SMS Carsound cat - $125
Comptech Ice box - $169 (new per Comptechs website)

Total - $1144

So, $1144 / 22hp = $52 per hp increase. Not too shabby for less than $1200.

 

The onlything in question Brian is the Ari Filter. Comptechs is pricey and included in the post above I think.

I have a comptech filter but also use a K&N filter mounted on a modfied piece of an old stock filter. Cost was $30.

Trey

 

The post wasnt directed at you or anyone in particular, just wanted to go along with what George was saying about the "$358" price tag for the ice box. I made my own Ice box, and used the comptech filter($68.), which at the time was the only drop in for less than $125 (monster, and spoon filters). My car was by no means a dyno monster. It made 176.xx with a JDM header, carsound cat, comptech filter, and a stock b'pipe with a spoon N1. It was still a fun car..

 

For all the mods on which I got prices, I mentioned above I used list prices to make comparisons simple. Obviously parts can be had cheaper (new & used). However how cheap one can get parts could be part of whole new thread! With regards to the list prices on the Comptech icebox, from their site:

Ice Box, 94-01 Type R & LS/RS/GS $169.00
"Must be used with either the Comptech Intake Kit,
or Comptech Air Filter Upgrade"
Air Intake Kit, Comptech Sport (97-01 Type R) $189.00

Total $358. If only the filter is added, then total cost is $169+$69=$238

I am interested in the cost of George's old setup. If he got 182 hp at a [quote:9b761bc9f5]cost of Total - $1144

So, $1144 / 22hp = $52 per hp increase (based on 158 hp stock).[/quote:9b761bc9f5]

Then to get to 192 hp it cost a total of $3963 (list) according to what SMSP & George said, or an extra $2819 for 10 hp more, which equates to $282/hp for those extra 10 hp. This is expensive to add 10 hp.

With regards to the use of peak hp, I am quite conscious of how this could skew the cost numbers slightly, if one is tuning for more mid-range torque. However having just come back from two track days at Watkins Glen, when exiting the esses at full throttle with my stock ITR motor, I was at 6700-7000 RPM in 4 th at the entrance to the back straight, and never was able to get past 8500 RPM before the brake point. So torque in this RPM range is what would have helped me the most there, and this would be pretty close to where the peak hp is made. In city driving, the priority would certainly be torque in the lower ranges. But in the Sport Compact Car article where they reviewed the Toda ITR and others, track time was the metric. This means tuning for maximum torque above the gear shift RPM, which generally would be quite similar to tuning for maximum hp in an ITR. I just want to spend the money once (if all goes well) and was looking for how to get to a NA 200 whp the cheapest way. Dyno curves with build details for 200 hp are pretty rare.