George Knighton

Several members have raised an issue here and elsewhere because of an evidently stricter interpretation and enforcement of the NASA CCR with regard to certain hybrid safety systems, namely OEM ITR seats and Autopower ERW four-point rollbars with harness bar and cross brace, as these rules apply to HPDE/HPDS students.

Since it's known that the ITR Expo basically follows the NASA CCR, with their permission, this was a cause for concern among some members.

I spent some time this afternoon talking to people from NASA and SCCA, including instructors and racers, safety inspectors, organisers and former race directors. We identified problems that can be introduced by using an aftermarket rollbar system in conjunction with OEM reclinable seats.

In all honesty, there is an issue that cannot be discounted, regarding the remote possibility of the driver submarining under the harness bar in some kinds of accidents, for example:

In the event of a cataclysmic multiple impact incident, there is a possibility that the seat rail mountings and the seat squab latch could all fail.

There is then the possibility that the seat back would then be forced forward by the harness bar as the seat cusion is forced backward, and this might force the occupant's helmeted head forward and into the intrusion zone of one of the impacts, or the occupant could be injured by being forced further back under the harness bar.

If this happens, then there is a chance that the occupant will suffer greater injury than if the rollover protection were not present.

For this reason, organisations like NASA are going to begin to suggest an all or nothing approach regarding safety systems.

The way Jim Politi explains it, we know that OEM belts, OEM seats and the car's construction are designed to work in concert with each other to prevent serious injury.

We know that the all-out approach to further safety, namely five point belts, rollover protection and stiff-backed FIA seats, when all used together, act to substantially improve the likelihood of surviving and walking away from a horrible accident.

However, when people mix and choose their safety items, the test database drops to almost nothing, and much more is left to chance and to the owner's skill in picking his safety items with common sense.

We also have questions that are difficult to answer: Are you telling me I'm safer with my OEM seats and OEM belts if I don't install rollover protection?

Not necessarily.

If we install rollover protection with OEM ITR seats, we introduce the extra problem of maybe submarining under the harness bar of the Autopower setup in a cataclysmic multiple impact crash. However, we also introduce a measure of greater safety in the more common kind of violent rollover that would tend to crush the roof of the car, but without the multiple harsh impacts that would break the seat rails and the squab latch.

For this reason, we have decided to allow ITR with OEM seats and Autopower ERW setup with harness bar and cross brace to pass tech for the ITR Expo, assuming all common sense items are to spec, especially that the seat is firmly attached with the usual Honda/Acura rails and fittings.

We see the wisdom of the direction that NASA is moving, and we encourage everyone who has the Autopower setup with OEM seats to go ahead with the investment in FIA fixed back seats if they are continuing in the sport.

Part of the discussions today focused on whether some kind of safe seat brace could be fasioned for ITR OEM seats, and people are working on this idea. There doesn't seem to be any current seat brace that we could recommend.

All you'd really need is a broad, flat piece of metal fastened behind the driver's seat back that would keep the seat from being forced back. The irony is that the Autopower cross brace already provides this protection for the passenger seat. :crook:

Please remember that you are taking your life in your hands any time you're on the track. Although we are allowing ITR owners with OEM seats and the Autopower ERW unit to go out on the track, that does not mean that we can absolutely guarantee your safety or that you will not be injured or killed on the track.

These comments are in addition to and explanation of, and not in derogation of the other ITR Expo safety rules.

kepani

george:
with regards to the safety equipment, is there a list of safety equipment combinations which will be permitted and not permitted at the expo 4?

meaning to say:
stock oem itr seat, oem 3pt belts, no rollover protection - ok
fia bucket seat, oem 3pt belts, no rollover protection - not ok
fia bucket seat, oem 3pt belts, rollover protection - ok
fia bucket seat, 4pt or 5pt harness, rollover protection - ok

note: above are just examples and are by no means necessarily correct

something along these lines.


i currently have the 2nd combination; fia bucket seat, oem 3pt belts, no rollover protection. will the officials at the expo not allow me to participate?

B( * Y * )BIES

though it might be costly... it would be nice if an FIA approved seat company (insert brand name here) were helping sponsor the Expo and/or displaying products at the Expo and allowing drivers to "rent" a seat (or seats) if needed to comply with the rules.

Chris N

Thanks George.

I will unfortunately be in the situation where I have harnesses, an AP rollbar and a stock seat come Expo IV time.

I really appreciate this info and I know many others do.

Stickied for that very reason.

George Knighton

I'm afraid that we regard that as an unsafe combination.

If you have FIA fixed back seats, you should have rollover protection.

Sorry.

kepani

george,

if i were to put the stock seat back in place of the fia bucket (i.e. as the car came oem - 3pt belt, no rollover, etc.) would that be acceptable? i just want to do the right thing before coming to the expo.

however, if possible, i will be looking for a roll bar so that i can still run with the fia bucket. to put another combination out, would it be acceptable for using the fia bucket with rollover protection without a harness?

George Knighton

No system that Jim Politi calls "hybrid" will ever be the best thing.

You really need to buy the seats, harnesses and rollbar/cage at the same time and install them at the same time so that you know they're working as a system.

1.Reinstalling your OEM seats and using the stock belts would be fine.

2.Installing rollover protection in combination w/your FIA seats with the intention of using the OEM belts might be fine if you are sure the belts are entirely functional, unimpeded by the seats, and your rollbar is properly padded. You are at the mercy of the people on the scene if they determine that your belts are not working properly, and my sincere counsel would be to go ahead and get harnesses at the same time, if you can afford it and have time to install them.

kepani

thank you george for the in depth response. i have put more thought into this and have almost come to a conclusion. safety first is something that i think is imperative. hopefully come time for the expo, i will have rollover protection and a harness system.

as for the 3pt belt and the recaro spg, the lap portion of the belt is not as snug over my lap, most likely due to the "deep dish" quality of the bucket seat.

george, sorry if i'm botching your thread with the tangent. just wanna get it straight come expo time.

kepani

Chris N

Each time a new reply comes through on here.. I get more and more confused.

I have a stock seat and an AP Rollbar with Diagonal Cross bar and Harness bar, seen here:

http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/we...MXk1NDE%3D.jpg

(I now have SFI 45.1 1" thick padding)

I plan on having harnesses by then, but do not have plans for a seat. I would love to have one, but cannot afford 2 seats (the only fair way), so until then... OEM seats.

According to the above quote by George, this setup will pass for the Expo.

Yes/No? I'm specifically concerned about the ERW part, as I have no idea if my rollbar is ERW.

George Knighton

That's an example of why hybrid safety systems don't always work out. If the seat compromises the OEM belt operation, you need to look at harnesses.